George Clooney to be called as witnesses in sex trial involving Berlusconi

Cind - I was trying to say that with B in a position of power, it would have been very easy for inappropriate dealings to occur in those situations and parties and the woman be too scared to come forward or say no. That doesn't excuse him at all. The girl was underage and if there was an exchange of money for sex, then it is illegal. Full stop.

My issue was with the vibe in some of the posts here that it was the fault of the woman because she was there and if if she wasn't at the party and she wasn't dressed the way she was, nothing would have been able to occur and he wouldn't be in this situation - as if it was all the woman's fault. I am just getting thrown by the excessive amount of posts here on this site recently that seem to be "poor powerful rich man being exploited by some scheming worman". These men know what they are doing, they just think they can get away with it due to thier position, fame and wealth.

Sorry for the confusion - I read a post, saw red then posted in haste without clarifying my point.

I don't know Italian justice system, but it looks like it is a messy one. How many times MR.B. was accused of breaking the law?? Due to his power and money he always rises to the top.
" Verdict - not guilty", isn't that one of his jokes?? IMO he still got money and power through lots of connections and ""will"get away from charges against him. Eli being Eli will say anything in Court just to make herself look good. I don't think G. should be put on a witness stand, but I am pretty sure that the defense team will try to use his fame and popularity to help B. get not guilty verdict. IMHO.

Of course they will both sides will do whatever they have to. I don't really see how George can help either side. He has said he never went to a bunga bunga party and unless there are pictures and someone else besides a hooker to say he was there isn't a lot they can do about it. Eli is another story her connections go back to her tv career etc so she may be in for a harder time then George. I'm sure both would prefer not to get called! I don't think he is going to get away with it everyone seems to already know he is guilty and the judge isn't going to want to be accused of being corrupt. It will be interesting and you never know with Italy! Look at foxy knoxy.

watching wrote:

doris day wrote:he just saw some girls probably dressed unappropriately who had no reason to be in the residence of the prime minister,THATS ALL

Seriously? Have we gone back to the fifties where you think it is reasonable to blame the woman because of the way she was dressed? If the PM invited them into his house, they had the right to be there. Nothing excuses him of being able to act any way that he wants to the detriment of anyone else. Especially if he was paying for it and the parties involved were underage. Let's not forget that he is a billionaire and was the PM at the time so he was in a position of power that could influence or intimidate someone in that environment - moreso than anyone else in Italy at that time.

Whether a woman is dressed primly or like a skank, she still has the right to the expectation to be treated with respect. Just like you and me. Or your mother. Or your sister.

If I can jump in here to avoid more argument, I think Doris and Watching are misunderstanding each other.

I believe Doris is saying that George could see which way the party was going because of the way the women were dressed and made his excuses and left. By "dressing unappropriately" she's saying the women were dressed for a sex party, not a dinner party and that was something George had the sense not to be part of.

She's not saying that it was the women's fault that the parties happened because of the way they were dressed.

Katiedot wrote:

watching wrote:

doris day wrote:he just saw some girls probably dressed unappropriately who had no reason to be in the residence of the prime minister,THATS ALL

Seriously? Have we gone back to the fifties where you think it is reasonable to blame the woman because of the way she was dressed? If the PM invited them into his house, they had the right to be there. Nothing excuses him of being able to act any way that he wants to the detriment of anyone else. Especially if he was paying for it and the parties involved were underage. Let's not forget that he is a billionaire and was the PM at the time so he was in a position of power that could influence or intimidate someone in that environment - moreso than anyone else in Italy at that time.

Whether a woman is dressed primly or like a skank, she still has the right to the expectation to be treated with respect. Just like you and me. Or your mother. Or your sister.

If I can jump in here to avoid more argument, I think Doris and Watching are misunderstanding each other.

I believe Doris is saying that George could see which way the party was going because of the way the women were dressed and made his excuses and left. By "dressing unappropriately" she's saying the women were dressed for a sex party, not a dinner party and that was something George had the sense not to be part of.

She's not saying that it was the women's fault that the parties happened because of the way they were dressed.

I believe that Mr. B. was going to implicate George in some scandal, and, George, probably smelling something fishy, declined the invite. Bravo, George.

Dexterdidit wrote:Of course they will both sides will do whatever they have to. I don't really see how George can help either side. He has said he never went to a bunga bunga party and unless there are pictures and someone else besides a hooker to say he was there isn't a lot they can do about it. Eli is another story her connections go back to her tv career etc so she may be in for a harder time then George. I'm sure both would prefer not to get called! I don't think he is going to get away with it everyone seems to already know he is guilty and the judge isn't going to want to be accused of being corrupt. It will be interesting and you never know with Italy! Look at foxy knoxy.

Not quite what you think, pictures of George with the queen bee (Sabina Began, which is the girl who was organizing the festivities), there are no photos of George and Elizabeth to dinner with Berlusconi and both have always said not to be ever been. Sabina Began George also stated that the proposals did but then he said he had no power to go beyond, because they would not get more in Italy (joking)

Sorry, I forgot the picture[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

She looks a little like Lisa.

Well the trial has started. We will see who gets called.

Stripper nuns danced for Berlusconi: trial
April 17, 2012 - 7:19AM

Showgirls testify in Berlusconi sex case. Dancers and models testify in former Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's trial where he is accused of having sex with a minor.

Strippers in nun costumes danced in front of Silvio Berlusconi at his villa, a witness on Monday told a Milan court where the former Italian prime minister is on trial for allegedly having sex with an underage prostitute. Model Imane Fadil said the first time she went to a party she was given 2000 euro ($2519) in cash by Berlusconi, who told her: "Don't be offended."

That night she said she saw two young women in nun costumes with "black tunics, white veils and crosses" stripping in front of the then prime minister. One of the two was Nicole Minetti, now a regional councillor for Berlusconi's People of Freedom party in Milan, Moroccan-born Fadil said. She said Minetti and the other woman ended up staying the night at the villa near Milan and alleged that women who stayed were paid more for sex.

Fadil said she had heard of Berlusconi having sex for money with at least two of the women invited to his parties, Italian media reported. Fadil also said she had come under pressure from a mysterious man to go back to the villa last year when the Berlusconi trial had already started.

"A man stopped near my house and gave me an untraceable phone to organise a visit to Arcore. But I didn't want to," she told the courtroom.

Berlusconi is charged with having sex with an underage prostitute, Karima El-Mahroug, and then allegedly abusing his powers by getting police to release her when she was arrested for theft so that his crime would not be revealed. El-Mahroug, a dancer who was 17 when she allegedly had sex with the then prime minister, is better known by her stage name of "Ruby the Heart Stealer".

Berlusconi rejects all charges and El-Mahroug denies having sex with him. The Corriere della Sera daily last week reported that Berlusconi last year paid a total of 127,000 euro to three witnesses - Minetti and two other girls - when the trial against him had already started.

Berlusconi's lawyer Niccolo Ghedini rejected accusations of an attempt to influence their testimony, saying that the payments were absolutely legal and were an example of the former prime minister's "usual generosity". Speaking to the Il Giornale daily owned by his family, Berlusconi himself said: "Minetti asked me for help at a time of difficulty, and I happily gave it to her. When someone in difficulty asks for help, you don't ask what for."

Italian media said Minetti used the money to pay legal fees in a separate trial against her for allegedly procuring prostitutes for Berlusconi. The other two recipients were twins Eleonora and Imma De Vivo who are alleged by prosecutors to have performed strip shows for the then premier.

"Where could these people have found a job after having been so heavily dragged into a scandal built around me in which they were unwitting victims?"

"When I am confronted with dramatic and touching cases, I don't hesitate to intervene whether it be for individuals or for charities," he said.

The billionaire tycoon was ousted in November 2011 following a parliamentary revolt against his increasingly scandal-tainted rule and a wave of panic on the financial markets that pushed Italy to the brink of default.

He is a defendant in two other trials -- for tax fraud and for violating official secrets. An Italian court earlier this year threw out bribery charges against him under the statute of limitations following a five-year trial.

Despite his being convicted several times of corruption and false accounting in the past, all cases against Berlusconi have either been overturned or expired after years of moving laboriously through Italy's justice system.

AFP

Source

CNN report

Berlusconi's 'bunga bunga' women testify at his trial
By Hada Messia, CNN
April 16, 2012 -- Updated 1502 GMT (2302 HKT)

Rome (CNN) -- Women danced in their underwear at a "bunga bunga party" held by Silvio Berlusconi, a woman testified Monday at the former Italian prime minister's trial on charges of having sex with an underage prostitute, Italian media reported.

Imane Fadil said women dressed as nuns removed their habits as they danced at the party in February 2010.

She was embarrassed and asked to leave the party, but Berlusconi persuaded her to stay, showing her around his villa and giving her gifts including a watch, rings and cash, she told the court, according to Italian media.

She said Berlusconi had promised her a job at one of his television stations, but it never materialized.

The hearing is the latest in a long-running case around dancer Karima el Mahroug, nicknamed "Ruby the Heart-stealer."

Prosecutors say Berlusconi had sex with her 13 times when she was underage and abused his power as prime minister to get her out of jail when she was held on suspicion of theft.

El Mahroug has said that she never had sex with Berlusconi and that she lied to him about her age, telling him she was 24.

Berlusconi acknowledged in an interview over the weekend that he had paid some of the witnesses but said there was nothing improper about the payments.

He said he had given the money to people who had been unfairly hurt because of their association with him.

"All of my guests have had only the fault of having been invited to dinner by the prime minister and have been swept into a colossal media lynching operation," he told the Italian newspaper Il Giornale on Saturday.

"Having the means, when I find myself in front of dramatic and touching cases, I don't hesitate to act, " Berlusconi said.

Ambra Battilana and Chiara Danese were also due to take the stand on Monday.

Berlusconi resigned as prime minister in November over his country's debt crisis, bringing to an apparent end an 18-year era in which he dominated Italian politics.

Source

Here is my advice to Silvio Berlusconi: Ma, va cacca!!

MM, you are a blast!

I so hope that George really wasn't involved in any of Berlusconi's bullshit!!!

I really believe that Berlusconi was setting George up as part of a smear campaign, all because George financially supported the political campaign of Berlusconi's rival, Walter Veltroni. JMVHO.

MM wrote:I really believe that Berlusconi was setting George up as part of a smear campaign, all because George financially supported the political campaign of Berlusconi's rival, Walter Veltroni. JMVHO.

I did hear about the Berlusconi party rumors (and hope it's not true of course) but I didn't realize he was invested in Italian politics to the point of financing a campaign...

Teenage bellydancer lay naked on Silvio Berlusconi's desk and posed for photographs,
Brazilian model Michelle Conceicao claims she found photographs of teenager Karima El Mahroug on her camera
By Rob Preece PUBLISHED: 15:32 GMT, 10 June 2012

An underage bellydancer who allegedly slept with former Italian prime minister Silvio Berlusconi posed for photographs as she lay naked on the billionaire's desk, it has been claimed. The pictures of Moroccan teenager Karima El Mahroug – known as ‘Ruby the heart stealer' - were reportedly found by a Brazilian model, who is expected to be a key prosecution witness in Berlusconi's ongoing trial.Berlusconi, 75, is accused of having sex with Mahroug at one of his 'bunga bunga' parties when she was 17.

The age of consent in Italy is 14 but paying for sex with a woman below the age of 18 is seen as underage prostitution and punishable by up to three years in prison. Prosecutors claim that Berlusconi gave a string of women cash, jewellery and cars to attend his parties, which he insists were elegant dinners.Brazilian model Michelle Conceicao, 33, said she found the naked photographs of Mahroug on her own camera while the girl was staying at her flat. They showed the teenager lying on a desk in Berlusconi's office, 'the one where he did all his interviews, with the framed photographs of his whole family,' the Sunday Times reported.

Miss Conceicao said: 'Ruby was stretched out on top of it, naked as her mum made her and with her legs spread out. 'I told her she was crazy, she said she needed them to blackmail the prime minister and she laughed.' Miss Conceicao said she was so shocked that she ordered Mahroug to leave the flat. She has already told Italian magazine Espresso that the allegation that Berlusconi slept with Mahroug at one of his parties was 'true'. Miss Conceicao told the magazine ‘All the girls who were paid went with him. Those that stayed the night got 5,000 euros or maybe more, the others who didn’t stay got at the most 1,000 or 2,000 euros.'

She also claimed that two ‘very famous’ names were among Berlusconi’s favourite women and she was willing to testify about them when she gives evidence at the trial in Milan later this month. She is one of dozens of witnesses due to give evidence at the trial. Others include the footballer Cristiano Ronaldo and actor George Clooney.

Berlusconi’s lawyers, Piero Longo and Niccolo Ghedini, ridiculed Miss Conceicao's account, saying it was 'completely baseless and contradicted by Mahroug's statements and by what Conceicao has already said to authorities in Milan. Berlusconi has insisted that nothing untoward happened at his parties and that they were merely convivial evenings of 'fine food and music'. Mahroug also says nothing happened between them.

The trial has been going on for a year and has already heard from several witnesses who described how women would dress as nuns and police officers before stripping off while performing seductive pole dances for Berlusconi and two of his cronies at the parties which took place between 2009 and 2010.

Berlusconi is also accused of abuse of office, with prosecutors claiming he had Mahroug freed from police custody when she was arrested for theft by wrongly telling officers she was related to the then Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak. The trial continues and is not expected to finish until the autumn.

Source

I'll bet that Berlusconi's legal team will just spin and keep spinning this out until it gets past the statute of limitations phase. That is typical of Italian courts when a person of importance (i.e., wealthy) is involved in a legal situation.

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Ruby: Prosecutor waives forty witnesses including Fede

June 29, 2012 18:29

(AGI) - Milan, June 29 - Move to the surprise of the Prosecutor of Milan, at the end of the hearing process about Ruby, announces the intention to give up some forty witnesses, including Emilio Fede, Iris Berardi, Barbara Guerra, Raffaella Fico, Daniel Salemi, Miriam Loddo. "We may give up to other witnesses, including the injured party," says the prosecutor Ilda Boccassini, referring to Ruby. The waiver says Boccassini, came because the last witness today, Roberta Bonasia, one of the women guests at Arcore.
The prosecutors consider "useless" to hear these witnesses.



from


Ruby: procura rinuncia a una quarantina di testi tra cui Fede



18:29 29 GIU 2012

(AGI) - Milano, 29 giu. - Mossa a sorpresa della Procura di Milano che, al termine dell'udienza del processo Ruby, annuncia di voler rinunciare a una quarantina di testi, tra i quali Emilio Fede, Iris Berardi, Barbara Guerra, Raffaella Fico, Daniele Salemi, Miriam Loddo. "Ci riserviamo di rinunciare anche ad altri testi, compresa la parte offesa", dice il pm Ilda Boccassini, riferendosi a Ruby. La rinuncia, spiega Boccassini, e' arrivata "alla luce dell'ultima testimonianza di oggi", quella di Roberta Bonasia, una delle ragazze ospiti ad Arcore. A quanto si e' appreso fuori dall'aula, i pm ritengono "inutile" ascoltare questi testimoni.



so maybe George too will be
wipped away???

Hope so, because he says he wasn't at the actual parties. Just there at one time to get some donation help for something.

it's me wrote:
so maybe George too will be
wipped away???

Clooney and Canalis called to testify Friday '


 
(AGI) - Milan, October 19 - George Clooney and Elisabetta Canalis have been called to testify in court in Milan Friday 'neighbor, Oct. 26, for the trial Ruby. Both of which were called as witnesses by the defense of former prime minister who summoned as witnesses 14 other people, including Barbara D'Urso. Ruby was the same in a report under investigation to tell the PM that he saw the American actor Clooney and Canalis showgirl in the course of an evening Arcore.http://www.agi.it/politica/notizie/201210191445-pol-rt10161-ruby_clooney_e_canalis_chiamati_a_testimoniare_venerdi

That should be interesting George and Eli together again.

Here is the Daily Beast story on it too....I had posted another story on another thread but will put this here. They make mention of the fact that it would the first time EC and GC would see each other since the break up. What are the rules in Italian court when someone is called as a witness?
-----------------------------------------------------------------

In Silvio Berlusconi Trial, Lawyers Call George Clooney, Ex-Girlfriend
Oct 19, 2012 3:55 PM EDT
Defense attorneys say the actor and his ex-girlfriend Elisabetta Canalis can help Italy’s former PM prove that underage sex parties were not taking place at his Milan villa.

Former Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi made a rare appearance at his sensational sex trial in Milan on Friday, denying that he had ever had sex with an underage belly dancer and claiming American heartthrob George Clooney can help him prove it.



The 76-year-old media mogul is facing up to 15 years in prison for allegedly paying then-17-year-old Karima El Mahrough for sex more than a dozen times. Both Berlusconi and El Mahrough, a Moroccan who danced under the stage name Ruby the Heartstealer, have admitted the elder statesman paid the young dancer more than €60,000, but they both deny it was for sexual favors. The money, Berlusconi has explained, was for a hair-removal machine for a beauty center Ruby planned to open. Berlusconi is also charged with abuse of office for allegedly calling the Milan police in May 2010 to spring Ruby from jail when she was stopped on an unrelated offense. At the time, he told police that she was the niece of former Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak and he was trying to spare the leader embarrassment.

On Friday, Berlusconi told a panel of three female judges that he did not bed down the teenager and that his “bunga bunga” parties were elegant evenings at his Milanese Arcore villa, where he often sang to guests as they dined on gourmet cuisine. He says they were not sex orgies inspired by his former pal Muammar Gaddafi, who reportedly introduced his bro-friend to the art of the underwater orgy. “I can exclude with absolute certainty that there were ever scenes of a sexual nature,” he testified on Friday. “Everything happened in front of the staff and at times my children too came in to say hello.”

Over the summer, several women who had attended the parties contradicted Berlusconi, testifying that they had been paid large sums of cash in unmarked envelopes at the end of the night to perform striptease acts and pole dances. Sometimes the dancers said they started out in nuns’ habits and nurse uniforms, with one woman even claiming she dressed as Barack Obama before baring all. El Mahrough, who has admitted to being a frequent attendee at the parties, told investigators that George Clooney and his former girlfriend Elisabetta Canalis had attended one of the bunga bunga bashes.

On Friday, Berlusconi’s lawyers called both Clooney and Canalis to testify on Oct. 26.

Clooney has admitted meeting Berlusconi at his lavish villa to solicit support for his humanitarian work in Darfur, but he says he declined the invitation to stay for a party when the meeting concluded.

Berlusconi would benefit in the eyes of the law from Clooney’s testimony since it would cast doubt on Ruby and others’ claims about seeing the American actor there.


“I’ve had one evening with Berlusconi and it was one of the more astonishing evenings of my life,” Clooney said in a video interview with Time magazine.“I went to speak about Darfur. But he took me to see his bedroom and the bed that Putin had given him.”

If Clooney attends, it will be the first time he and his former lover have seen each other since their breakup. Canalis, who was a showgirl of the stripe that might have attended a Berlusconi bash before meeting Clooney, has never commented on whether she attended a bunga bunga party or not. But the actor says that he did not attend any party at Berlusconi’s house, and that he would come to Milan to testify to that if asked. “I spoke to their people and said, ‘I will come and testify if you’d like,’ because I wasn’t at the party that I was said to have been at. I wasn’t at his ‘bunga bunga’ party.” His spokesman was unavailable for comment about whether he will actually show up in Milan next week.

Berlusconi would benefit in the eyes of the law from Clooney’s testimony since it would cast doubt on Ruby and others’ claims about seeing the American actor there. But Clooney’s attendance in court would undoubtedly draw much more attention to the seedy sex trial than the former prime minister would like. Either way, the trial is expected to take a turn to the tawdry in November when Ruby herself is scheduled to address the court.

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He won't go. Doesn't have to go and would do him no good PR wise so I'd bet he won't show. Don't know about Canalis. She may go for PR value, whatever that would be.

So if he's offered to testify, could that just be in written form?

IMO, George should go in person, just to clear his name. He should also get reliable counsel, just in case Berlusconi decides to pull a stunt on George. I hope Berlusconi comes out looking like the scumbag that he is.

I just wonder if he does go will Stacy go with him as support? LOL. Now THAT would be something to see. Girlfriend present meet girlfriend past. Uff Da! LOL

It's a possibility, but probably unlikely given the number of celebrities asked to testify on that day. Could be at completely different times of day

If he is subpoenaed he would have to show up.

Nah, they won't subpoena him. He's a foreigner living in a different country. I think he just won't show.

It does make me laugh. What on earth do Berlusconi's lawyers think George will be able to help them with? Or are they just looking for another act in this three ring circus?

As others have stated, I think they want George there to say that NO bunga bunga was going on so that makes Berlusconi look like a saint and makes George look like he's defending the creep! I still believe that George shouldn't have admitted that he went in to Berlusconi's bedroom to see the Putin bed. Hey, maybe that was the evil eye bed that was reportedly bought by George! hahahaha

If he doesn't go then it may be used to say he had something to hide, but if he does it still looks bad to a degree because he admitted he was there. But The fact he was taken away from ball room to a bedroom with the unusual bed, that he can name as he saw it, shows he is telling the truth that he was in that bedroom. And when invited to stay for the party that was a "later" event, he said no. All he has to say is he didn't stay for the party so therefore, couldn't testify to whether or not such a party took place. Its one person's word against another, but the fact he can name that bed, shows potential for his words to be weightier than those who say he was at the party.

Exactly. The only testimony he can give (according to what George has said publicly, anyway) is that he was never at any of these parties and the only time he was there was for a charity dinner and guided tour of the house.

What a mess. Over the years there has been stories about Berlusconi´s parties (in Milan, Rome, Sardinia). Chronicle scandalous.

Situation is unpleasant for Clooney. He is connected to this trial and it doesn´t matter what he does it won´t look good. Worst possible scenario is to travel there with SK (to deny he ever was there) as she looks exactly like he could have just found her there. Best would be the get his name out of it completely as the trial goes on.

There would not be a case unless one of the girls was underage. Was she really? Could have had any kind of papers coming from Marocco. With actual happenings, lies and speculations it must be interesting…wouldn´t surprise me if someone soon had seen Elvis there too.

You are doing a bit of confusion: 1 George admitted he was over for dinner but Berlusconi at Palazzo Grazioli in Rome and not in villa at Arcore where Berlusconi was a party. 2 Berlusconi has never named the pair Clooney and Canalis to his parties but they were appointed by Ruby, the Moroccan girl at the time still a minor

He could easily appear from his lawyers office in LA via video conferencing. I seriously doubt he would fly to Italy for this - if he is called at all.

Would the situation be different for Betty as an citizen if she did not attend?

Bic there is a lot of information on this forum about all of this
stuff for you do a catch up.

Right. On this forum...yes. But, I do get newspapers and I have 400 channels with all the news so...

Charity talk: what charity is Berlusconi involved with, other than giving cash for girls ? It is an act of charity for women in need, isn´t it?

In the news it said: George Clooney will be called as a defense witness at former Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's trial on charges he paid for sex with a minor.

Talking about good connections...and he showed him Putin´s bed! Whenever someone gives a house tour after dinner, I never get to see the bedroom! Why? Am I the only one, do other people take their guests to their bedrooms? I am just curious.

Here's the article from the Guardian. According to them George has agreed to help in ay way he can.

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If someone receives a summons as a witness then they have to show up, doesnt matter where they have citizenship. If they don't then they can be held in contempt of court. Doesnt necessarily mean he will be there in person, maybe on video link.

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he had his face done
lately


your comment?


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He should have paid for a completely different face as the one he's got to work with ain't doing it for me. He's very repulsive to me - maybe it's partly due to his personality.

he seems a dummy
in the first one


and yes
repulsive is a perfect def

Berlusconi just wants to smear George because George gave money to Walter Veltroni for his political campaign. Veltroni is a rival of Berlusconi. George just gave money to Veltroni on good faith, just like he asked Berlusconi for money for Darfur, in good faith. Poor George, he means to do well, and he gets mixed up in this mess.

I dont think its about smearing George's name its about clearing his own. he faces 15 years in prison if found guilty. He is saying there was no sex at the parties and George can attest to it. I dont see how George saying there was no sex at a party would be bad for George.

Didn't George say he wasn't at the "bunga bunga" party? I think he said he did visit Berlusconi once but only to ask him to help in Darfur.

Its the girl that is saying she saw george there.

Ruby The Heart Stealer said that George and Betta were at the bunga-bunga party. George said that he was asked to stay by Berlusconi, but he said no. So, George cannot say anything about what supposedly went on at the party, simply because he was not there. Man, Berlusconi must really think that everybody is so stupid that they cannot see him for the crumb that he is.
Well, this proves that Ruby is a liar, and that Berlusconi will have a hard time proving anything else. He always got away with everything, and he thinks he can fool anyone into believing what he wants them to believe.

a liar
sure

so all that he said
against b
could be labeled as

liars.....